Peter: Hey, everyone. Peter Byram here, and today we're with one of our members in the Next Level photography training program, Amanda White of AR White Photography. Amanda, how are you doing?

Amanda: I'm doing great. Thank you.

Peter: I'm glad to have you here for this catch-up interview.

Peter: Tell me where you were before joining Next Level. What were you doing to grow your business?

Amanda: I had some leads coming in through WeddingWire and a few through Facebook, but mostly referrals from venues and coordinators. I'm in a smaller community, so I was basically waiting for leads to come in. Then I'd respond with my price sheet, because that's what they wanted. They asked for pricing every single time, so I thought I was giving them what they wanted.

Peter: What was the challenge with that?

Amanda: It would come and go. It was never really steady. And when I responded with pricing, a lot of times I'd lose quite a few people, because I wouldn't hear back from them. I wasn't sure what I was doing wrong.

Peter: They asked for pricing, you sent the price sheet and they disappeared. And these leads were coming from venue and vendor referrals, WeddingWire, The Knot and some Facebook. When we started working together, your main goal was to double the size of your business. I think you were doing around $7K a month. Does that sound right?

Amanda: Yes. I did about $70,000 last year, so about $6,000 to $7,000 a month.

Peter: The pretty amazing thing is your results in May. Tell us what happened.

Amanda: I joined your program and watched all the videos, and one of the first things I did was start inviting people to be friends on Facebook. Then I created a Facebook group, a wedding planning group, and invited people to that. With your help, I ran a couple of ads and started getting a lot of leads. People started messaging me on Facebook, and I booked quite a few right off of that, and on Instagram too, using your tactics.

Peter: So you went from getting most of your business from referrals and WeddingWire to really leveraging social media.

Peter: Let's walk through how you take someone from a stranger to a paying client on Facebook.

Amanda: It was awkward at first. With your help, I found the right conversation starters and started messaging people once they accepted my friend request. I found those people through venues. I looked at venue pages on Facebook, and there are a couple of local groups geared toward weddings. After I'd invited enough engaged couples, Facebook started suggesting friends who were engaged. Most of my suggestions are engaged couples now, so that's where I'm getting most of them at this point. Then I send a message asking how it's going, how wedding planning is going. I'm leveraging COVID as much as possible. Some people don't respond, but a good number do. And they'll say it's been crazy, either they haven't really started planning, or they're starting over because of COVID. So they feel like they can open up to me. Then I mention my wedding planning group and ask if I can invite them, and most people are very grateful. So I send them the invite, and they join the group.

Peter: There's a lot to unpack there. Amanda started working with us at the beginning of April, and we're in June now. In a couple of months, you started that group from scratch, and now it has 270 members. And what's even cooler is how many of them become clients.

Peter: Do you ever take people straight from that message to a call, or do they mostly go to the group?

Amanda: It depends on where they are. Because of COVID, a lot of them weren't doing much, so I didn't want to overwhelm them. If they had a date, I'd say, "Can we jump on a quick call?" right there on Messenger. Once I got them on a call, either Messenger or Zoom, the quick calls were more about building rapport and hopefully getting to a Zoom call. I'd talk to them about epic photo moments they could plan, like a first look. So many people are grateful that I took the time to do that with them. They're only a few months out, and they never thought about some of these things. Taking that time puts me at the front of their minds. If they weren't far along in planning, or I felt they weren't ready, I'd still have them in the group, but I wouldn't invite them to a call yet. I just wanted them to start seeing my work. And then they'd reach out to me, because they're seeing my work.

Peter: So you're adding people, messaging them and talking about planning. You're not going up to people and saying, "I'm a wedding photographer. Hire me." You start by offering value, and people are receptive. How do you transition from "How's wedding planning going?" to "Let's get on a call"?

Amanda: Most of the time, once they start opening up about wedding planning, if they don't have a photographer yet, they'll say, "Hey, I know you're a photographer. Do you have my date available?" It's that simple. You're just starting a conversation. They're not stupid. They're on my personal page, and they see I'm a photographer, and I've been posting new work there constantly. So at this point I'm mostly waiting for them to bring it up. But if they've just started planning and don't have a date yet, I might say, "I could probably help you with some of the planning if you have a few minutes for a quick call."

Peter: So you start by being helpful.

Amanda: That's pretty much it.

Peter: That's a really good point. They're aware of the market. They're actively looking for someone who does what you offer. You start the conversation, and they come to you.

Peter: Once someone's on a call, what do you do?

Amanda: If they don't have a date and don't have much planned yet, I don't spend time on pricing. I'm getting to know them and their ideas and trying to get them to open up. If they're not quite ready, I say, "You're a member of the group. Please feel free to invite other engaged couples so we can build this community," and I encourage them to post. Now we have a ton of members posting. I don't even have to post every day anymore. They're asking questions and helping each other. If they're not ready to buy, they're not ready to buy. On the other hand, if they tell me they have a date and don't have a photographer, I'll say, "Awesome. Do you have a few minutes to chat?" and get them on a Zoom call, even better. I share my screen and show galleries that match their style, like a farm wedding. Even better if they're getting married at a venue I've already shot at. I'll show them that gallery. Then I talk about their timeline and those epic photo moments, and ask, "When you look at photos, what are the kinds of things you don't want to miss? What moments do you know you want captured?" I'm trying to get them to open up as much as possible.

Amanda: So there are two categories. If they're not ready, they're in the group. I keep posting, they see my work and they see the interactions. Every engagement session or other session I do with a group member, I post to the group and tag them. They respond with something like, "These are so great, thank you so much." Then I message them and ask, "Would you mind leaving a quick testimonial in the comments on that post?" They comment about how easy I was to work with, and they go into it a little more.

Peter: That's powerful, and really smart. And now you're getting more and more people messaging you inbound?

Amanda: They're seeing my work and messaging me every day.

Peter: A lot of photographers aren't used to getting on the phone with people. The way you used to handle leads is pretty common in the industry. What's your advice for someone who's new to messaging people cold, starting conversations and getting them on the phone?

Amanda: Just do it. It's going to feel weird and uncomfortable, but plow through the uncomfortableness and do what Peter says. I've been in this business long enough to know that uncomfortable is a good feeling. It wasn't totally unfamiliar to me. I've always been adapting. What I needed was a push in the right direction, a mentor to confirm what I already thought was right and come up with a whole bunch of new ideas. I hired you to help solve a problem for me: how do I take my business from $70K to $140K a year? In my mind, I'm paying you to come up with those solutions, so I'm going to take every bit of advice you give me and turn the volume up. I'm going to take it as far as I can, because you know what you're doing. And once you do it and it works, you get more confident. You get positive feedback. People tell me they love the way I'm doing it. And the people who ghost, that's okay. It's a numbers game. You move on to the next person. Don't focus on the one you lost. Put that energy into the ones who are going to be really grateful for what you're doing.

Peter: When you started these new tactics and felt resistance, what did you do to overcome it?

Amanda: Going over the questions you've proven to work, asking those questions and getting better with every single call. You just talk to a lot of people. Some aren't going to be your ideal client and won't like this process. They don't want to spend much. They're looking for something quick and cheap. But you keep talking to people, keep refining and focus on what they're saying and wanting, and use that as fuel for the next conversation. I fill out your lead consultation tracking sheet and make notes on every call about the things I said that resonated with them. They might go from "Why are you calling me?" to really interested when I mention creating epic moments or helping with their timeline. As you talk to more people, you notice the phrases they respond to, and you use those in the next conversation. It keeps getting better, because you know what your audience wants.

Peter: It's an iterative process. The more you do, the more feedback you get, and the more you improve, until somebody gets on the phone with you and there's a very high chance they'll book.

Peter: So what were your results in May?

Amanda: I booked at least 10 weddings, and it was around $35,000 in bookings.

Peter: That's seriously incredible, especially during COVID. And you said you used COVID to your advantage, which is counterintuitive. Most people see it as a disadvantage. You saw it as something to talk about, a segue and a way to give value.

Amanda: And when I'm talking with new couples who are looking at 2021 but don't have a date or a venue yet, I tell them, "A lot of people have to reschedule and are being pushed to '21, so you're going to want to decide on a date quickly." They'd need to book anyway, because spring of '21 is going to fill up for everybody around here really quickly, but that's another reason. Once I say that, they're like, "Oh, you're probably right." And it's 100% true. So I've added that element of "you need to book soon." Through your guidance, I've gotten a lot more confident creating urgency to shorten the sales process. I still have some who linger, and I don't want to rush anyone, but couples are booking a lot faster.

Peter: $35K in May during COVID. You should be proud of that. You're well on your way to your goal of doubling your business. Going from emailing price sheets to getting people on calls, giving value, asking questions and creating urgency, did you ever feel too salesy or pushy?

Amanda: It's a work in progress. It's improved quite a bit, but there are still off days. I know how to improve and what I need to do. When I get on the phone with somebody, all I did was help them, and I didn't have the expectation that they were going to book. You take that off the table, and you just feel it when it's a home run.

Peter: But did you ever worry about being too salesy?

Amanda: Of course. I definitely worried about it. One of the things I told you is that I didn't want to come off as too salesy, but that's not your approach, and your approach works. So I followed your instructions. You have to ask questions, listen, learn and read their cues for buying. If they're ready, they're going to ask. If they're not asking, they're not quite ready, and you just need to nurture them in your group and on your Facebook page.

Peter: How did you get over that fear?

Amanda: You told me to listen to them. They're going to tell you what they want, and you just listen and reflect back what they want. As they talk about their day, they open up about the emotions of it. That's really what you want to know about for their pictures. It's about creating a connection. If they have a date and they're on the phone with you, it's because they want what you're offering. So it's about making sure they know they can trust you, that you'll show up and do the best job possible, and then asking at the end of the call, "Does this sound good to you? What do you guys think?"

Peter: The fear of being salesy is like the boogeyman in the closet. You go look, and there's nothing there. It's really about listening, understanding what they need and offering to help if you can. And if you can't, no big deal. They're in your group, and you'll keep helping them.

Peter: You mentioned that over the last couple of months you've hired two associates, and you also offer videography now. Why?

Amanda: Because I was tired of sending potential clients away just because I already had that day booked. I have a couple of associates who second shot for me and shoot their own weddings in a different area. So it was a matter of, do I want to turn that money away, or do I want to book it? And with video, I had a lot of people asking whether I do video too. So with your help, I figured out the process: how to run it, since it's not my own work, and how to manage it. It's been working really well.

Peter: What's the biggest benefit?

Amanda: There's very little work. I ask the associate if they're available on the date, put it in the contract and handle the client management. It's an easy way to make extra money I wouldn't have made otherwise.

Peter: It's another stream of income, and you don't have to do the service delivery. You get on the phone, they want it, and you can offer it. It's a win-win.

Amanda: And with all the leads, it just seemed like the next evolution of my business. If I want to grow it, this is the next obvious thing to do. It's been a dream, and in a couple of months, it's exactly what I wanted. I knew I could get there.

Peter: The sky's the limit. You've unlocked so much scale with other people shooting for you, and you did this in a couple of months, during COVID. When you started your group, how long did it take until people were consistently messaging you?

Amanda: About six weeks. I put a lot of work in up front, and then it started paying off. I knew it would, because before, I wasn't getting my images in front of anybody. I kept posting to my business page, and whoever had already liked it was already a client. So when you said to go out and find people who are engaged, so they see my work, that was the first time potential clients were seeing my work on social media. It was a light-bulb moment. Now you're advertising to your audience, engaged couples, not past clients. Before, I relied on clients sharing or tagging a friend. Now I'm like a billboard for my work, all the time.

Peter: And anytime you want, you can go out and find more. Instead of being reactive and waiting for an email, you can proactively grow your business.

Amanda: There's a learning curve too. Couples you find on social media haven't warmed up to you at all. That was completely new for me. My inquiries used to be warmed up already. They'd seen my work, and they'd been referred by somebody who had already talked me up. They were a pretty easy sell, if they ever responded to the pricing. With Facebook, you have to warm them up. Sometimes I get lucky and someone books right away. But it's a different way of thinking that I wasn't used to. It's giving people time to warm up to you and get to know you.

Peter: That's a powerful point. It's a new mental model. Instead of "inquiry, pricing, yes or no," there's a funnel people go through, and some go faster than others. Someone sent by another vendor is already warm and ready to book. That's not everybody. When you understand that, you realize more needs to happen, but in the long run, it's way more effective.

Amanda: Now I have at least 300 people who could become clients any day. I'm putting out good information, being a resource and they're seeing my work. It's a steady stream of inquiries now, nonstop.

Peter: Your phone is going off every time we talk.

Peter: What would you say to a photographer who's thinking about joining Next Level but is on the fence?

Amanda: If you're willing to do what it takes, and you actually want your business to grow and really want more clients, hire Peter. I've done this professionally for 12 years. I've always listened to podcasts and marketing techniques and applied some of them, and I've hired people to do this for me. None of it really panned out like this. I'd get some results, but nowhere near what I've gotten since joining. And if you need the extra hand-holding like I do, you're willing to do that. Really understanding how to do this has been super cool. I know I can do it on my own at this point. I almost think I underpaid you. This has been the best thing I've done for my business in 12 years.

Peter: Thank you. Last question. You've been in the Next Level community for a couple of months. What's your number one piece of advice for other members?

Amanda: If you're watching the videos, do the activities they tell you to do. They give clear examples of how to be proactive. It's the easiest way to go about it. To be more specific, find a lot of engaged couples. The ads have been great for me, but organic leads have been even better. Keep adding and keep going through the numbers. With organic, it's quantity more than anything. Friend request a lot of people and keep messaging them. Make a point of adding 10 to 20 people a day. Don't add so many that Facebook flags you, like it did me. Then the next day, or after a few hours, go back and message those people to start the conversation and get them into your group. That's been the biggest thing for me. Every time I run ads, I get two to four weddings. But by adding people organically, I can do it every day and keep growing the group.

Peter: Great advice. Consistency every day. You'll get quick wins, but the big results from what you do today come 30, 60, 90 days from now. Amanda, thank you so much for jumping on. I look forward to seeing you keep scaling this business.

Amanda: Thank you so much. I really appreciate you.