Peter: Hey, what's going on, everyone? It's Peter Byram, and today I'm with one of our members of the Next Level photography training program, Sarah Armstrong of [Studio name]. Sarah, thank you for jumping on. Tell us a little about you and how long you've been in business.

Sarah: I've been a photographer in Northern Michigan since 2011. I started as a hobby. It was something I did on the side to meet people and make friends. I'm from the lower part of Michigan, and I didn't have many friends up here. So I did a project called Project 231: 231 photos of 231 women in the 231 area code. All those shoots were free, and that's how I started my connections in photography. For several years, I did photography part-time. Then in 2017, I decided it was time to quit my sales job at my local newspaper, where I'd been for a couple of months shy of a decade. I was doing sales and marketing, so I used a lot of what I learned there in my own business, and I went full-time in May 2017. Since then, I've photographed thousands of people, mostly weddings.

Sarah: I had a full-time assistant for the first couple of years, but I was on my own this winter, and then the pandemic hit. My plan was for my partner to join the business in April, and that didn't happen. It was disappointing and pretty scary. I wondered whether I'd have to go get a job somewhere else. All of this was new and scary at the same time, and my weddings were canceling, like 10 of them. It kept me up at night. If I can't weather this storm, how am I ever going to be able to retire, or scale my business the way I want, or make the money I want to make? All these questions came bubbling up. For about two or three months, I was truly scared about my future. I've photographed thousands of people, and I have all this sales experience, and yet I didn't have the tools I needed to move forward and see how to reach my goals. That's a hard pill to swallow for someone who loves marketing and really loves sales. I did not know that I didn't know. But I needed everything we've done.

Peter: There's a lot there. What was the problem you were trying to solve?

Sarah: In sales, the biggest thing they wanted us to learn was to get to the true reason someone makes a decision. For me, I needed to make enough money. Well, why? To live the lifestyle I want to live, because I wasn't doing that. What I wanted was a comfortable life that gives me time to travel and spend time with the person I love, and to truly live the life I want, which is to photograph people and weddings, and also to scale my business. That's always been something I wanted. When I connected with you, you gave me the roadmap to get there. I believe people hear the messages they're looking for, and your message hit the nail on the head. I was legitimately worried about surviving the pandemic. We've made huge strides because of changes in my business that I didn't even know I needed. The biggest takeaway is that you helped me solve organization problems, including scheduling, which was a huge part of managing my day without feeling all over the place. That kept me from being productive. By optimizing my day and my efforts, I can reach the lifestyle I want. But it wasn't until we reverse engineered how to get there that I could see how it would ever happen. It would have taken me decades to figure all of that out on my own. I'm so thankful we met when we did.

Peter: You had sales and marketing experience and were using some of it in your business. Where was the breakdown?

Sarah: I've always had a pretty active presence on social media, with very loyal followers, and I'm well known as a photographer in my community. The breakdown was, number one, not knowing how to find my ideal client. I could name who my ideal client was, but how do I find that person and get in front of them, organically and through paid ads? My best guess was bridal expos, being on The Knot and WeddingWire, being where I thought brides would be. But not every bride is the bride I want. The second thing was creating consistent lead generation, a reliable way to get leads from people I want to work with. You helped me solve that too. Beyond that, it was how to stay organized enough to stay on top of all of it and replicate results. One of my biggest fears was that I'd generate tons of business, but it would be up to me to follow up, stay organized and communicate. You gave me those answers too. It's been a dream and a whirlwind this last month.

Peter: And you only started a month ago. Photographers know social media is important, but they don't always know how to get in front of the right client or turn posts into leads and clients. What did you do specifically?

Sarah: Right when you and I started working together, I also teamed up with a local wedding planner who was putting together an adventure elopement giveaway. About 50 vendors, and two couples were going to win getaways where they travel to five locations on their elopement day, with vendors at each location. Through that, I started reaching out to people who were entering the contest and having organic conversations with people who genuinely wanted to win wedding stuff. I'd tell them I could help, even if they didn't win the giveaway. I realized that the more I genuinely tried to help and have real conversations, instead of trying to sell anybody anything, the better it went. This is a time when people are really frustrated. Every bride goes through craziness when she's planning a wedding, but with the pandemic, it's a whole other set of rules. They just want someone to hear them out. Any time I've made a big purchase, I've felt the same way. I want someone to hear me and respond with a real answer, not just try to sell me something. My posts changed immediately when I started doing what you told me: interact with people like you're having a regular conversation, because that's how people buy from you. I started interacting with people on posts for the giveaway, and I realized people really do want to win money off their wedding packages. So it was an easy segue: "I see you didn't win the giveaway. Let me tell you how I can help you win some money off a photography package." It let me start talking to hundreds of people right off the bat.

Peter: Where were you connecting with these people?

Sarah: Both Facebook and Instagram. In addition to the contest, I joined lots of Facebook groups. I'm not joining bargain-basement bride groups. That's not where my time is best spent. I'm joining groups that interest me. I've always wanted to shoot a wedding at Disney, because I think it would be ridiculously awesome and over the top. So I joined Disney wedding Facebook groups, and it turns out there are a billion of them. It's an easy place to say, "I'd love to give you some money off your Disney wedding photography experience. Here's how to reach me." It's been eye-opening. Looking back on my old posts, they only served my needs. Why would anybody interact with something that doesn't apply to them? It's about speaking to your audience and what they want.

Peter: We don't manufacture desire. It already exists in the hearts and minds of the people in our market, and you hit that nerve. So you were creating content in different groups that spoke to your ideal client. What happened next?

Sarah: I didn't start posting in groups until I was ready to take on higher volume. I knew it was going to send a lot of traffic to my website, so I had to be ready and organized enough to attend to every inquiry without losing people. I built my funnel and my workflow first. Once I did, the floodgates opened.

Peter: Were people commenting or messaging you?

Sarah: A little of everything. People commented on the posts, because I encouraged that. I know comments give a post more weight in the group, so more people see it. But I don't want it to feel forced. I want it to feel like something they want to take part in. So it's not, "Comment below if you don't have a wedding photographer yet." It's, "Comment below if you want to win free money off your wedding photography package." It's how you position the message.

Peter: Once you started getting leads, what was the next part of your sales process?

Sarah: Once leads came in, I followed up with text messages and phone calls to each person and set up consultations on my calendar, so I could really get to know them, through Zoom. My closing ratio has gotten crazy. It's much higher than passively trying to sell on my website, which is what I did before. I used to have my prices listed on my website. Now I customize each package for each person, because nobody wants the same thing. One person wants an album, another wants a photo booth, one wants an engagement session. So instead of posting my packages online and having someone pick them apart like a menu, it's easier to talk to them, listen to what they want and build the package around exactly what they need. I wasn't doing that before. You helped me see that this works better, because the offer is built for them, and saying yes becomes so easy.

Peter: And the collections often look similar. It's more about how you word it and what you emphasize.

Sarah: Exactly. Many of them look similar to what I had, and I use my old packages as guidelines, my starting point. But nothing has to be written in stone anymore. I'd rather talk to each person who's truly interested and tailor it to exactly what they need.

Peter: Before we started working together, what was getting clients like?

Sarah: It was hard. I'd lie to myself and say, "I'm in such a saturated market. There are so many photographers. Why would they even pick me?" I believed that, and it held me back for years. I see now that it's not true. It was hard because there was so much friction, and I didn't see it as friction at the time. I thought I was making it simple and easy. I had what I called my wedding application on my website, with all my packages listed. If what you saw matched what you wanted, you filled out this long form. It was cumbersome for people. And there was some foreshadowing: as a salesperson, I knew it works better to actually talk to people, even better in person. I don't know when that became less of a priority. I thought I was streamlining my business by weeding out people who weren't interested, but it's not the packages they're interested in. It's me. How can they be interested in me if they don't get to know me yet? I know that when I get someone on the phone, I can close them. I'd talk to someone on the phone, close them, and still send them back to fill out the application. Why didn't that ever come to the front of my mind?

Peter: It's the way it is in the industry. Photographers try to automate a lot, because we're not just photographers. We're bookkeepers and IT and everything else. Sales is something most people don't love, so we try to make it automated. But it turns out you really just need to talk to people.

Sarah: And you make a lot of money when you just talk to people.

Peter: How were people even getting to the contact form on your website?

Sarah: That's a really good question. Hopefully they liked my pictures on Facebook and clicked a link, or saw an ad on WeddingWire, or found me through the SEO company I was paying, and then compared me with 30 other photographers in different tabs. It was luck of the draw.

Peter: Some people will do that, but very few. And you were paying an SEO company?

Sarah: I was, for over a year, and I'm not anymore.

Peter: Were you booking people from it?

Sarah: I couldn't link anything directly to it. I couldn't say, "I spent this much on SEO and got this return."

Peter: That happens all the time. You know SEO is a thing, so you pay for it, and it's all working somehow. But when it stops, you don't know what was working and what wasn't.

Sarah: Or when you feel like nobody's searching for photographers because of the pandemic. Who's going to pay $4,000 for a wedding photographer when they don't know when their next paycheck is coming? It started feeling hopeless, and it was taking a real toll on me.

Peter: I know what that's like. The inquiries stop, you don't have a way to generate business, and you're still paying the SEO company and WeddingWire.

Sarah: You have to swallow that you still have to pay for it, even when it's not producing what you thought it used to. There's no calculation you can do, so how do you know what's worth it? This has been the most eye-opening experience I've ever had, and the best decision I could have made for the future of my business, for being able to retire someday. I'm not old by any means, but I think about how I'm going to do this when I'm 60. I'm not going to want to work every wedding of the year. You gave me answers. I'm only a month in, and I can already see how this turns into something bigger than just me.

Peter: So we started working together on May 13. Now it's June 15. What have the results been?

Sarah: Life-changing. That's the simplest way I can put it. I checked right before this call, and in the last 30 days I've done $19,000.

Peter: During the worst economic crisis in a hundred years. Nobody's booking weddings right now, right?

Sarah: Go ahead and keep thinking that. I see so many photographers in my area taking on second jobs or asking if anyone needs a second shooter this summer, and I'm not in that position. I'm so thankful not to feel that desperation. I sleep like a baby at night, and that's priceless. I don't enjoy seeing other people struggle. I'm glad I'm no longer feeling that way, and eventually I can bring those people into my business and help them not feel that way.

Peter: Why don't you feel like you're struggling anymore, aside from making $19,000?

Sarah: Because I know I'm going to be able to replicate these results anytime I want to. If I want to take time off, I can afford to. If I want to really drill down and fill up 2021 and 2022, I can do that. I now have the confidence to know I have all the tools I need to find the success I've always dreamed of.

Peter: For everyone listening, Sarah was previously averaging about $7,000 a month, and not every month was $7,000. It was unpredictable. Now she's done $19,000 in a month, with a repeatable system using social media, paid and organic. And you've done a ton of organic.

Sarah: Because I genuinely want to connect with people. Once I realized how to use my voice online, I already had the voice. I already care about what's going on in people's lives and how I can help. You have to be a people person to do this job. How can you call yourself a wedding photographer and look for intimate moments between people if you don't care about emotion in the first place? When I shifted to being helpful, people started seeing me as someone they could vent to and trust to be by their side on their wedding day. That organic connection has been really fun for me, especially during the pandemic, when I haven't been out shooting and connecting with people.

Peter: You mentioned before we started that you have five consultations a day, every day this week. And if you want to take a trip or buy something, you know you just need to do more calls.

Sarah: Right. If I need to make $10,000, I know how to do it, and I know how many calls it's going to take.

Peter: It takes the guesswork out of it. So many people don't know what it costs to get a customer, or how many inquiries they need to get a call. Has that been a big step up?

Sarah: It's a game changer, because I can spend my time in the ways that best serve me, instead of wondering what to do today to generate business. What can I do today that puts $2,000 in my pocket today and another $2,000 next month? It takes the question out of it. I'm not perfect. I haven't tracked every single call yet. But I'm starting to build routines and find my footing. And if I made $19,000 without my full footing, during a pandemic, imagine what I'm going to do in a year. I've already booked my first associate wedding, so I won't even be there, and I'm still getting paid.

Peter: Where is that wedding?

Sarah: At the Tunnel of Trees, just north of the Petoskey and Harbor Springs area in Michigan.

Peter: So you've moved into generating the leads and selling the wedding, but you're not the one shooting it. How did you do that?

Sarah: This was still just from organic lead generation. I had two calls back to back for the same date. I didn't have to pull anyone's leg about someone else wanting their date, because there literally was someone else. The first couple booked me right away. So I got on the call with the second couple and said, "I'm really sorry, but I have good news and bad news. The bad news is I'm booked for your date. The good news is, I saw on your inquiry form how hard it is to find a photographer for September 12 right now, with COVID and not enough time. I can take care of that for you, because I'm well connected in the photography community." I posted in a bunch of local photographer groups for that area and interviewed eight or nine people. I presented my favorite four to the couple and said, "Look at their posing more than their editing, because the editing will be my style." They'd told me how much they loved my editing. I had little PDF portfolios of each photographer's work, and they picked their associate. The photographer will hand over the SD cards that night, and I'll edit. That wedding includes a photo booth, and I won't even be there to shoot it. My cost is about $700 to pay the associate, plus printer paper and ink for the photo booth.

Peter: So you keep about $2,700, and you're not shooting the wedding.

Sarah: Not even shooting it. And I'll be shooting another wedding that day, for another $3,000. That's how you multiply and make yourself be in more than one place at once. I was never able to picture how to make that happen without the guidance, and the courses on how to become efficient and hire out the things you can't do yourself. It just never clicked for me before.

Peter: You started by talking about building this business to be self-sustaining, so you're not shooting 40 weddings a year when you're 60. This is the beginning of how you get there, and now it's repeatable.

Sarah: It's something I can do over and over, in any area. If I wanted a wedding in California, I'd join California Facebook groups, start posting there, run specials and talk to the people asking for help. I'd get in front of them, invite them to my Facebook group, give them valuable information, and they'd make their way down to a consult with me, where I make them an offer.

Peter: With all the rapport and value you've given them, and your ability to connect the dots for them on the call.

Sarah: It's magical. I feel like I cracked the code, or like I'm getting away with something. But at the same time, I've never felt more upstanding or honest about myself or my business. I feel more complete, as a business and as a person.

Peter: Because you're genuinely helping people.

Sarah: And making a lot of money while I'm doing it.

Peter: That's what business is supposed to be. You get rich helping others.

Peter: A lot of photographers haven't spent much time on sales. They're artists, comfortable behind the camera or in Lightroom.

Sarah: You can hide behind the camera. You can say, "Let me change my settings really quickly," while you think about what to say. But when you have to sit and have a conversation eye to eye, without a camera or a keyboard to hide behind, it's intimidating for a lot of people.

Peter: And people don't want to feel salesy, like a used car salesman. I remember you saying you didn't want to feel like you were pulling the wool over someone's eyes.

Sarah: I think that came from the newspaper. They'd roll out special sections that I didn't think would do anyone any good, and I couldn't get behind selling them. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to get behind selling myself either. I didn't want to feel like I had to push somebody in my direction. And I haven't done any pushing in any direction at any point in making $19,000 in the last month. It's just been, "Hey, it's a crazy time. How can I help you? Let's get on a call." And people say, "You want to help me? That sounds great."

Peter: What else has changed in your life over the last 30 days?

Sarah: On our first call, you asked me about goals for my business and my personal life. I had a really big one: I wanted my partner to be able to quit his job. We've been together almost seven years. His schedule was all over the place and depended on the weather, and it didn't let us live the life we wanted, like going on vacations and camping. We're avid outdoors people. I'm thrilled to say that about a week ago, he quit his job, and he's going to be working with me full-time. We're going to travel all over the country shooting weddings together for the foreseeable future, with our dog. Because he quit, and because we've been booking weddings all over the country, we bought a truck camper. We've already stayed in it a couple of nights, and I've already done consults from it. So in a month, he's been able to quit his job, and I've found a way to cut travel costs for destination weddings, with no Airbnb or hotel fees, especially ones that accept a dog. I can really picture what it will look like to do exactly what I said I wanted to do.

Peter: It's crazy how fast it all happened. That was literally what you wrote down.

Sarah: You said a lot of things that resonated with me. I know that nothing worth having is free, whether it's time or money, and sometimes both. I knew this would be a commitment, and I was ready. I don't have any weddings until late July or early August, so I had all this time. Why wouldn't I invest in myself and my business and turn up the volume at a time when we really need to make it happen? Now I have this summer with my partner, when we can go wherever we want, for the first time. Most summers, I'm booked every weekend. There have been a lot of terrible and sad things from the pandemic, but this is something beautiful that's blossomed, because I had to slow down and really think about how I was going to do this. Every time I questioned whether something was possible, you showed me the way. You gave me the roadmap and opened doors I didn't know were there. And this isn't even the final goal. I thought this was a far-down-the-road dream. Now I'm setting new goals and dreaming really big.

Peter: What's the next dream?

Sarah: To buy a house on a lake.

Peter: How much do you want to make a month?

Sarah: I'd love to keep steadily making $20,000 a month for now. But the sky's the limit. If I get to $20,000 next month, I'll keep pushing. I have the time right now. Later in the year, I'll be doing a lot of shooting and editing, and I've figured out that some of that will probably get outsourced. That's the problem with a lot of photographers. They're not willing to let go of the art, and I'm 100% that person. But as soon as you show me the numbers, it's a different story. You can make $7,000 a month, edit all your own photos and never have free time with your friends, or you can make $20,000 a month, edit only what you want and outsource everything else. That sounds pretty good.

Peter: There's nothing wrong with wanting to cherry-pick weddings and make six figures. But if you want to do $50,000 or $100,000 a month, it becomes about a team of artists you nurture and coach. You're still creating art, through them. A director isn't necessarily holding the camera, but they have the vision.

Peter: I think you found me through a Facebook ad. What ultimately led you to say, "I'm going to work with Peter"?

Sarah: There were a few steps between clicking that ad and paying. I was skeptical, because I get served ads all the time, and I have a marketing brain, so I thought I could pick them apart. The second I clicked, I knew I was going into your funnel, and I thought, "Let's see where this goes." There was no price listed, so I knew it wasn't going to be cheap. But anything of real value isn't cheap. If you're going to charge me that much, you need to be confident that I'll make the money back and then some. So my plan was to do exactly what you said. I really dug in. The night we signed on, we even stayed up. What made me pull the trigger was that you listened to my concerns. Anytime I brought up something that was a big deal to me, like wanting my partner to quit his job, or wanting to travel more, or wanting to sleep at night knowing I can create the life I want, I could see your reaction on the video call and tell whether you thought it was possible. Every time, you said, "Yes, we can make that happen." My concerns weren't obstacles to you. You already had the answers. Nobody had asked me those questions before. I hardly asked myself. I pulled the trigger because I felt you understood what I was looking for and believed you could help me. And you did.

Peter: Would you recommend others take the same step?

Sarah: Absolutely. I recently scouted a location for the elopement giveaway with another photographer I'll be working with that day. She's worried about her future, and I couldn't help myself. I told her about you. She's someone well known in the community, and I don't want to see her fail. I said, "I know the guy who has the answer, and he has the time to teach you." She's not the only one I've sent. When I see another photographer I respect and whose work I love, the best thing I can do is recommend they talk to you. I tell them it's not going to be cheap. It's not a $29 course. It's going to take work, and it's an investment in yourself.

Peter: What would you say to someone watching this who's on the fence?

Sarah: I was there too. I almost said yes before I knew exactly what I was getting, and then I stopped myself and said, "He sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but I have to ask more questions." So my advice is to ask every single question, share every single concern, and let Peter tell you how this is going to work for you. There are certain traits you helped me develop. Everybody has them, but we're all at different levels. You helped me focus on what I needed and clear out what was bogging down my day and my life. So ask every question and listen to the answers, and if it sounds like something you're ready to take on, pull the trigger, because you'll be really sad if you wait and realize later you should have done this months ago. I was skeptical the whole time and ready for any reason to pull off that call, but I'm so glad you spent hours with me figuring out what was keeping me up at night and how we were going to fix it.

Peter: Last question. You've been in the Next Level community for a little while. What's your number one piece of advice for other members?

Sarah: You don't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be a perfect start, but you have to start. Don't let analysis paralysis take you over. We're our own biggest obstacles. We get in our own heads and overthink, and I'm guilty of it. My best advice is to stop doing what isn't working and what's not generating revenue, whatever that is. Maybe that means less time scrolling Facebook, or spending a different block of time in your garden. It'll look different for each person, but you have to make it your own and just start. It's not going to be perfect. Even for me, this first month, my tracking isn't perfect yet, but I'm getting there. The numbers don't all have to be written down for me to close a call. I have five calls every day this week, and I'm going to try my best to track them so I get an accurate closing ratio, because I want to know how many calls it takes to make a certain amount. It won't be perfect for the first few months. You're going to forget things and have to go back and watch more videos. Just don't stop. Be relentless, like you say in the videos. Don't make excuses. It's a beautiful day outside right now, and I'm doing what I know I need to do to drive revenue. The point of this group is to drive your goals, which are usually tied to making money, which is tied to how many consults you do, which is tied to how much you interact with your social media community.

Peter: Cause and effect. If you want to book more weddings, you've got to do more consultations. That's the ultimate metric. It's easy to get distracted by things that don't move the needle, like updating your logo.

Sarah: I'm a sucker for shiny objects. That was one of my concerns at the beginning: I bounce all over the place, and it's exhausting. You gave me some great tools to sit down and figure out my focus for this block of time, and when I'm done, I can do the other things. It's made it easy to organize my life. I haven't been late to things. I was an athlete, an artist and a musician growing up, in all the activities, and I think that gave me a dislike of being super scheduled. I avoided it because it felt too structured. I was a little resistant to scheduling the way you have us do it, and you broke me. I'm on board 100%, because it has freed me up more. It gives me things to look forward to. I know when my free time is going to be. I don't wonder what I'm going to do to make money today, or whether I'm going to edit. I know when I'm going to work on things, and I know when I'm going to be done. That's the big one. I used to work until 3 a.m., and sometimes I still do, but now I'm choosing to.

Peter: It's a myth that being loose with your time gives you freedom. It's actually the opposite. Time runs away from you, and people wonder why they aren't where they want to be.

Sarah: I always say I live in Northern Michigan because I can count time passing with the seasons. I'm more aware and more conscious of my business right now. I feel like I've unlocked some secrets of being productive that I wouldn't have unlocked otherwise. And it all lived within me already, habits I developed over 10 years in sales. I just had to reframe sales into selling myself. I didn't want to feel like a salesperson for myself, and you asked, "Why don't you want to feel like that?" I said, "Well, I don't like being sold to." So we talked through all of it, and it's worked out so well.

Peter: And we're just getting started. We'll have to do another one when you get the lake house.

Sarah: It's going to happen. I have no doubt in my mind. I don't even think it'll take that long.

Peter: Things are already opening back up, and there's all this pent-up demand. It's been a real pleasure working with you, Sarah. Thank you again, and we'll speak soon.

Sarah: Sounds good. Thank you so much.