Peter: What's going on, everyone? It's Peter Byram, and today we're with another member of the Next Level photography training program, James Kern of James Kern Photography. James, it's been a pleasure working with you. Tell us a little about you and your business.

James: I'm about three years into taking money for photography professionally. I've been shooting longer than that. I was finding my sea legs and figuring out what I wanted to shoot, and I still shoot everything: birthday parties, kids, headshots, food. I shoot a lot more variety than most people I know, and I treasure that. That's on top of the fact that I'm a professional actor as well. Part of why I started talking to you was to balance and manage both, and it's working out pretty well.

Peter: So you're an actor and a photographer. Before we started working together, what was the main challenge you were trying to solve in your photography business?

James: The big struggle was the caliber of clients. I wanted clients who appreciate and value the work the same way you do, who understand the value of high-quality work and aren't constantly trying to undercut you and put you in positions where your work suffers. Clients who know why they're paying what they're paying to get what they want. I really wanted to move away from the smaller budget clients.

Peter: How were you getting clients back in the day?

James: Back in the day, 45 days ago, it was a lot of Thumbtack, and trying to get referrals. I took some swings at Facebook ads and Google ads, just with the free credits they gave me. Nothing happened. And that was fine, because Thumbtack was working. Thumbtack brought in $50,000 for me in the year. It doesn't work for everyone, and I'm not sure what set me apart, but it was working. It was just bringing in lower-paying clients who weren't as sure of what they wanted.

Peter: And you were charging less than you are now for weddings, right?

James: I was charging less. I was undervaluing what I was shooting.

Peter: What were you charging for a wedding on average?

James: I think around $2,000.

Peter: And now?

James: $3,000 to $3,500, somewhere in that range.

Peter: What enabled you to raise your prices?

James: Truthfully, it's targeted messaging, being able to reach out specifically. With Thumbtack, all you're saying is, "I am a photographer. Here's my stuff. You're interested in this job, so maybe you'll like me. Here's my profile." They're skeptical. They're getting quotes from a bunch of different people. With this, it's, "Here is this thing. This is what you're looking for. If you click this, you'll get what you want." They click, and they think, "This is what I want." That's where the conversation starts. There's no room for skepticism. From the get-go, it's exactly what they're looking for.

Peter: How did you first come across me?

James: I was in your funnel. As a working photographer, you see three kinds of ads on Facebook: camera equipment, how to get better at photography and how to get better at your business. The business one popped up on mine. I don't usually pay attention to any of those, and honestly, I can't tell you why I clicked. Now I feel like one of my own wedding clients. And I wasn't even necessarily that interested in becoming a wedding photographer. That still isn't how I'd define myself, but it's a large part of my income now. Reading about the system is what made me decide to reach out.

Peter: So we got on a call. Then what happened?

James: You were great. You were nice and very good at what you do, and I heard everything I wanted to hear. You asked me what I wanted, and I said six figures. Then you laid out the steps to get there and put it in perspective: three or four weddings a month, and you're at your number. That's about 36 days of wedding work in a year, not including editing. More than anything, I got the sense that I could improve the whole working dynamic and caliber of my business.

Peter: If I remember correctly, you weren't totally sure at first.

James: I've always been hesitant with larger purchases. I research everything to the end. I'll watch 10 million YouTube videos about one shutter component, so I know that when it shows up, it's exactly what I want. Also, as photographers, we're targeted by scams so often, people just trying to run away with your money. If I buy a product and it doesn't work for me, that's one thing. But if I get taken for a ride, nothing hurts your pride or your business more, or your sense of trust in other people. And the crazy thing is, it's never happened to me. It's just the fear of it.

Peter: It's such a human thing. You see an ad on Facebook and think, "Can this really be true? Is this some elaborate scheme to rip me off?"

James: I went down the rabbit hole. I researched you on Instagram and everywhere else, trying to figure out if you were some back-channel secret money stealer. Turns out you were not. A lot of that was the fear of a big-ticket item that isn't a tangible product. It's the idea of a possibility.

Peter: So what ultimately led you to pull the trigger?

James: It was the possibility, and everything we talked about as far as potential for growth. But I think the biggest deciding factor was this: if I, skeptical as I am, clicked and got this far in the process, he must be good at selling. This system must really work. And if you can sell me to this point, then I believe you can help me understand how to sell my product.

Peter: You saw paid traffic and funnels working, even though you didn't fully understand them yet.

Peter: So you joined Next Level. Then what happened?

James: I disappeared into my cave for about 15 days. I started going through the modules as quickly as I could. I stayed organic for a long time before moving to paid, which I know is what you suggest anyway. I built the Facebook group and really established it, and I learned what it was to reach out to people cold. It's a weird feeling. It's funny seeing people in the group recently who are scared about adding people. I look back and think, "That used to be me." But I started to take on a mindset of a little bit of fearlessness. There are billions of people in the world, and so many of them are on Facebook. If you send a friend request or a message and it doesn't go how you want, it's not even a drop in the bucket. Realizing that gives you a kind of invincibility. I also had a lot on my plate, and I wasn't a full-time wedding photographer before investing with you, so part of me thought, "What was I thinking?" I had to redevelop my website and streamline it. But knowing that this is the funnel, and this is the format for the Facebook ad campaign, and then crafting my website to line up with that, was a great gift. Now I have a seamless connection between them.

Peter: Why did you go into a cave for 15 days?

James: Because it was what the program suggested. Don't back out. And I'd made this investment. There was no chance I wasn't going to put everything into it and do as much work as I had to. I also saw how much I needed to establish and create. So it was simply a matter of adding people, contacting them, communicating and getting a sense of the conversation and the flow.

James: I rescheduled my entire calendar. Before this, my average calendar had one thing on a day. It had no structure. Now I schedule time to plan my day. That's been instrumental in why I've been able to be successful this month, maintain that success and not drown under all of it. I was reinventing a lot of my lifestyle and the way I thought about my business. That's why I took so much time.

Peter: A lot of people think, "I just need to learn Facebook ads," or "I just need the right script." But we find out that we need to grow and evolve as a person to become the person who reaches the goal. Was that the case for you?

James: Absolutely. That's not me being disappointed in who I was. But this is telling: whenever I did calls, I'd write the details on sticky notes, and I had about 40 sticky notes on my desk. Going from that to putting everything into an Excel spreadsheet is a significant change. It takes personal discipline and awareness to say, "I'm on a call. I have to open this up and put the notes into this system, for future sanity and future happiness." It's made me more forward-thinking.

Peter: We talk a lot in the program about routines and systems. Not just systematizing how you get clients, but also making yourself more efficient so you can get more out of yourself. Your results in the last month have been amazing, and it's not a coincidence that you decided to go all in and make changes, not just professionally but personally, to support those goals.

Peter: The first thing we do in the program is show you how to get clients organically. What was that like for you?

James: It's scary to reach out to people about something as vulnerable as their wedding, especially during COVID. But COVID actually made it more accessible, because it made me really understand what these brides were going through, how hard it was for them and what they were struggling with. Cancellations create a huge problem and heartache for a lot of them. In learning to sympathize with them, I was able to connect with them and understand exactly what they wanted and who they were. That only happened through organic. If I send an ad out and someone clicks on it, I don't really know what that person is struggling with. Having hands-on experience, building the group, filling it and sending messages keeps me active in the community, one-on-one with them. It's really allowed me to understand that market.

Peter: I totally agree. I often start conversations with people organically, even if I'm not thinking about getting them as a client, just to deepen the relationship. So at first it felt weird putting yourself out there. A lot of photographers feel that way. We're used to hanging back and waiting for inquiries. Then what happened?

James: I started conversations with people in those groups, addressing issues, listening to their problems and hearing what they wanted. Then I was able to get them on calls. Some ended up being busy, or having friends who were photographers. That happened for sure. But people also started to book. That first month, I booked four weddings. Two were technically organic, but I had a scheduling conflict with one of them.

Peter: So you booked four weddings in July.

James: Yes. And keep in mind, I started at the end of June, and I spent a week or two accumulating organic connections before I really started reaching out. So I booked those four clients in about 16 to 20 days.

Peter: When you say you got those clients organically, can you step us through what that looked like?

James: Someone in a Facebook group I was in posted that they had to reschedule, or that they'd been having issues with vendors. I reached out and said, "Hey, I'm happy to talk whenever you want." She told me what she'd been struggling with and what she was looking for. I didn't push any product. I just said, "If you want to join my group, you can jump right in. I run this group. It's no vendors, all brides and me. Just an opportunity for people to talk and connect to real people." Then I kept posting, she kept commenting and engaging, and I reached back out and asked if there was anything she needed. She said, "I know you're a photographer. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this." So I said, "If you want to hop on a quick chat, we can set some things up."

Something I do is use Pinterest a lot. I have Pinterest boards for a whole variety of styles, because every couple has their own identity. So I said, "I have some ideas. I'll set up a Pinterest board for you. Take a look and tell me what you like, and add whatever you want." She started adding to it, her color schemes and everything, and that gave me an idea of what she wanted. Then I said, "If you want, get your fiancé, and we can have a more complete consultation." We set that up, and they were a really nice couple. I heard what they wanted, their story and everything that made them unique. I really enjoyed getting to learn who they were. Then we talked about the Pinterest board, and I screen-shared work from my portfolio that matched it. They said, "That's exactly in line with what we put up there." Then we talked about pricing.

Peter: It's cool to hear how you brought a stranger into your sales process, really understood what they needed, offered to help and turned a stranger into a high-paying wedding client. Out of thin air, using tools anyone can use.

Peter: Then you also started running ads. What was it like setting that up?

James: If you follow the program step by step, by the time you reach the ad component, it's all set up for you. You have the avatar, who you're looking for, your target and your message. By then, you've spent so much time getting to know these people organically that you can't not know what they want. You can't have those conversations without learning that. So for me, it was finding the right images to pair with the message and A/B testing things like the best headline. It's really important to me that I'm not a salesman. That was a sticking point for me, in organic and in paid ads. I just want to be your friend, not sell to you.

Peter: That's really what sales is at the deepest level: connecting with somebody heart to heart and giving them what they want. But we all have hang-ups about it. The rich guy is always the bad guy in the movies. It's about connecting with people, and if you can help them, showing them how.

James: So I started running ads for weddings, and that was great. I kept optimizing the ad, the lead form, the headline and the website. I didn't use ClickFunnels. I wanted to stay on Wix, and staying on my own site drove up the traffic to my website, which helps with Google too.

Peter: Authority.

James: Exactly. More traffic, so it naturally ranks higher. In that first ad period, I took in maybe 20 leads total. I reached out to all 20, had consultations with three and booked two. So my numbers from messaging to consultation were lower, but my closing rate was really good. I only ran those ads for about 10 days, because my calendar was filling up and I had some limits on what I could take on. So I paused it. Then I thought, if I'm going to do engagements with these couples anyway, what if I get to them a step earlier, at the proposal? So I put up an ad for proposals, got about 10 leads and booked two. I kept testing my limits and built ads for micro weddings, with a new website section and landing pages for them. I got about eight leads and booked two. So I was testing what was possible with each kind of ad and system. This month, I set up a boudoir ad. In a week, I got 60 leads. I've only reached out to one person from that ad so far, and she booked a $950 boudoir session, from a lead that cost about $2. So I still have 59 leads to reach out to, probably more by now. It's a system that really works. The ads have been great, and unfortunately they've made me neglect the organic. But after a while, you realize the cost of the time it takes to do organic versus a paid ad. If you can get leads for $2, maybe it's okay not to do organic for a while.

Peter: Let's get into your results in July. What was your total revenue last month?

James: Total revenue was right under $20,000, about $19,000.

Peter: Congrats, that's amazing. When we started working together, what was your business at for 2019?

James: $50,000.

Peter: So you did $50,000 in all of last year, and this last month, during COVID, you did about $20,000. That's a testament to you, your effort and how you connect with clients. At the start of this conversation, you said you wanted to attract a different caliber of client. Do you feel like you're doing that now?

James: Absolutely. When you write an ad that offers something for free, you'll get a variety of people clicking on it. Some just want the free thing. But there's a range in the middle you have control over, and it depends on your message, the language you use and the images. If you create a message that resonates with someone who appreciates good photography, there will be people who see the value in it and are comfortable paying more, because it matters to them that much more.

Peter: You also booked a fourth wedding that didn't happen, right?

James: That was the silliest thing. I made it all the way through the process, and the couple was great. I was so excited to work with them. I booked them, and I'd confirmed I was available. Then my wife saw it on the calendar and said, "We're going to be in France then." I hadn't had it on my calendar yet. I didn't have an associate set up at that point, and I felt so mortified that I referred them to a photographer I trust. It wasn't until afterward that I figured out how I could have kept them in the business.

Peter: It's a learning experience, and you've since brought on another shooter.

James: I have. My circumstances are a little different, because acting schedules overlap a lot with wedding schedules. So figuring out how to scale and keep that personal connection is something I'm working on.

Peter: If someone listening is thinking about joining Next Level but they're on the fence, what would you say?

James: If you're even considering these conversations, you want more out of your business, whether that's more income or better clients. Change will have to happen. You can hack through the weeds and try to find it on your own, and maybe you'll strike gold. But it's kind of crazy how well Next Level helps photographers achieve what they're looking for, whether or not they even know what it is. It's not a one-time advertising thing. These are tools that go with you forever. I scaled them from proposals to micro sessions to boudoir, and I'm thinking about taking them all the way to business headshots. It's a training methodology and mindset that travels with you for the rest of your life, even into how I interact with people at auditions as an actor. It'll probably help you have more meaningful connections with people outside your business too. So if you're ready to make a promise to yourself to improve from head to toe, I'd say that's the best way to describe Next Level.

Peter: Before we started recording, you mentioned you'd considered hiring someone to do this for you, but you decided to learn it yourself. What's the benefit of that?

James: If someone runs an ad campaign for a set amount of time, and I spend that same amount of money, at the end of the day I haven't learned any new skills. Maybe I got great clients and spent less of my own time, but that expires. It's a machine you have to keep feeding. Once you have these skills, it's like that motivational poster in your elementary school classroom: give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for life. I'm now equipped with the skill set and the mentality to do all of this, and I don't have to rely on anyone else.

Peter: A lot of photographers think, "I could invest in learning these skills, or I could buy a new lens or a new body." What would you say to that?

James: If you have the money to spend on the lens or the camera but no one to take a picture of, why does it matter? This has put people in front of me to take pictures of. Maybe I only have a $50 camera and a $10 lens, but at least I have people to photograph who are going to pay me what we collectively think my work is worth.

Peter: Last question. You've seen other members in Next Level and the challenges they face. What's your number one piece of advice for them?

James: Be patient with yourself. It all takes time. Failure happens in our mind in about 10 seconds, and that's what we hold on to. But when you think you're failing in that moment, you take a look three days later and you're having great successes. So don't let the immediate fear of what is or isn't working, or the successes you see in the group that aren't happening for you yet, influence you. Only let that show you the potential for what will come.