Peter: What's going on, everyone? It's Peter Byram, and today I'm back with another member of the Next Level photography training program, Heidi Hoffman of Pine and Forge. Heidi, tell us a little about you and your business.

Heidi: I'm Heidi Hoffman, a wedding photographer based in central Florida. I mostly shoot weddings. I got started just after college, and last year I made it my full-time thing.

Peter: Where did you live before Florida?

Heidi: I'm originally from South Dakota. I spent eight or nine years in Omaha, Nebraska, and had my photography business there. Then I moved to Kansas for about 10 months, still running my business, and then moved to Florida.

Peter: You've moved a lot. Every time you move, does it feel like starting over?

Heidi: A little bit. You lose some relationships wherever you go. But I usually know where I'm going next, so I've been able to market in those locations and have work booked before I even get there.

Peter: That's smart. That's something that gets people. They have a good business in one location, then they move and lose all those relationships and referrals. So your answer has been to start networking and marketing before you move. How do you do that?

Heidi: I did it with The Knot and WeddingWire, mostly to get my name down there from an SEO and search standpoint. I didn't book a ton from there, but I booked one that made it worth it. Mostly I used social media, connected with a lot of people in the area and second shot.

Peter: Let's go back to before we started working together, around June, at the height of COVID. What was the big challenge you were looking to solve?

Heidi: I didn't know where my leads were coming from. I didn't know how to get them. I wanted to know exactly where to find a lead. They came in from different places, and they were sporadic and inconsistent. When they stopped coming in from any of those places, I thought, "Where am I going to find these people?"

Peter: What were you doing to get leads?

Heidi: Not a lot proactively. People found me on my website, and I got a few referrals. There were a lot of small beach weddings, which I love, but they were small. It was enough to keep me afloat, but as far as moving forward and hitting my goals, I couldn't keep doing what I was doing, just posting and waiting for people to find my website.

Peter: If you don't have leads, you can't book, and if you can't book, you can't hit your goals. Where were you at revenue-wise?

Heidi: It had dropped down to less than $2,000 a month.

Peter: So the referrals were inconsistent and smaller.

Heidi: And last minute. People booking small beach weddings maybe a month out.

Peter: So it's tough to build revenue over a year and know you have receivables coming in. Any other challenges?

Heidi: I didn't want my business to fail. I didn't want to go back to a corporate job or a regular job. That's what I was trying to avoid.

Peter: Did COVID hit you hard?

Heidi: There was a month and a half where I had zero inquiries. Literally nothing. And when people did inquire, I'd get so excited that I think I overdid it and scared them away.

Peter: That happens to people all the time. We talk about this in the training. Volume is the antidote.

Heidi: I felt the scarcity, like if I didn't book this person, that was it.

Peter: It's a downward spiral that feeds on itself. The last thing you want is to project scarcity, but it's hard not to when it's your reality. You also mentioned WeddingWire and The Knot. Were you doing much with those?

Heidi: I was on there and paying for it, but I was in the mindset that people just weren't booking.

Peter: What started to change that mindset?

Heidi: I started to see other photographers online who were still booking. Maybe not as much, but compared to what I was doing, which was basically nothing, it was a lot. I thought, there have to be people out there. And none of my couples had completely canceled on me. Most of them either got married with a smaller wedding or moved their date forward, which was amazing. I hadn't booked much for 2021, so I was probably available for whatever date they wanted.

Peter: So nobody was canceling, and you saw other people booking, and you thought, "Wait a minute, maybe this isn't true." It's such a seductive thought: COVID is happening, so there's nothing I can do, so I'll throw in the towel until it's over. It says a lot about you that you decided to make this work one way or another.

Peter: How did you first hear about me?

Heidi: I honestly don't know whether I saw an ad or you friend-requested me first. But part of the reason I contacted you was that, before we ever talked, I woke up one morning and my laptop was completely dead. It wouldn't turn on. And this was in the middle of me not booking anything. My laptop is my window into the world and how I do my work. I got a different computer, and then we started talking and I got into Next Level. I had zero hesitation that Next Level could help me.

Peter: Why do you think that was?

Heidi: Every time I've invested in education, like an online course or something I truly believe will move my business forward or give me a different way to approach it, it's helped me book more and make more. So I thought, I'm sure this can help me. I believed this was one of those times I needed to invest, because there was no other way. I couldn't keep doing what I was doing.

Peter: And it certainly has, and we'll get into those results. So your laptop breaks, there's a pandemic, the business is struggling, and you came into Next Level and said, "I'm going to make this work."

Heidi: I'm going to make it so I literally have no choice but to make it work.

Peter: That's such a common thing I notice with people who really succeed, in photography and in general. That level of commitment. No matter what, I'm going to make this work. And it serves you well in business, because business is hard. There are ups and downs, and there's always another storm. It won't be COVID, but it'll be something else. It's how we respond to it.

Peter: So you joined Next Level. Then what happened?

Heidi: I went through the training, and I felt this whole sense of clarity. I also felt this weird sense of urgency about it. I went through the training nonstop, straight through.

Peter: The first thing we talk about is lead generation, because your goal was to book more. Back on July 1, you said you wanted to get to $10K a month. So how did you start generating leads?

Heidi: Before COVID, I'd hit $10K in February, so I knew it was attainable. When I started, I was adding people on Facebook, messaging them and adding them into my group. I tried some ads, and it's not that I don't think ads work. I've just been able to go more organically, and that's been working for me right now. So I backed off on the time I was spending trying to come up with an ad and an angle.

Peter: So you went from a more reactive approach to a much more proactive one, going out and bringing people to you.

Heidi: And not feeling that scarcity mentality. I was not sad if someone didn't book me. I was not devastated. It didn't mean I wasn't going to reach my goals. If you do more volume, people are going to say no along the way.

Peter: How do you deal with rejection?

Heidi: It's still kind of a bummer. But it's more, "Okay, we move on," rather than sulking about it or trying to change their mind.

Peter: It sounds simple when you say it, but in the moment, the emotions start and the voices in people's heads start. How do you handle a day when people aren't responding or booking?

Heidi: I have a whiteboard up by my desk with my main takeaways from the training. I just look up and remind myself: be more analytical, be consistent, because consistency is going to bring you more people.

Peter: So you came into the training, started generating leads, setting up calls and booking people. Share your results from last month.

Heidi: Last month was one of those scenarios we were talking about. For a week and a half, we were contacting people and having conversations, and nothing was happening. I started to worry that no one was going to book me. I take things a month at a time, so I tell myself, "This is the goal for this month. You have four weeks." And there might be a week and a half or two weeks where not much is going on. But then on that Friday, I booked three that morning before noon.

Peter: That's why mindset is so huge. That's just the way numbers work. You can have five or ten nos in a row, and then the next ten are all yeses. But you have to keep a positive outlook so that when the opportunity is there, you don't sabotage yourself. That's the real challenge. So you did $15K last month, right?

Heidi: Yes.

Peter: And you did $15K in August too?

Heidi: Yes. That was the first time, and I was so excited. I shared it in the Next Level group, with my family and with people in my life. Everyone in the group was super supportive. Other people in my life were not.

Peter: So the most you had ever made in your business before was $10K, and that was the goal. Then you did $15K in a month, during a pandemic. And from there, you started telling people.

Heidi: I'd never made this much in my entire life. This was wild. I thought I'd just ride it, top it the next month, and everything would be great. But that's not how it went.

Peter: What were people saying?

Heidi: Someone close to me said it was a one-off, that it didn't prove anything and I couldn't repeat it.

Peter: It's painful when people close to us say things like that. And it got into your head.

Heidi: It did. I had all my goals up on my board so I could see every day where I was and where I needed to get to. Every time I looked at it after that, I'd hear them saying, "This is a one-off thing. You can't repeat this. It's not going to happen. The numbers don't show it's consistent."

Peter: This kind of negativity gets into your head. Then that was September.

Heidi: September was also my birthday, and I was really excited to go on vacation to Canada.

Peter: So you had this high in August, $15K, a huge milestone. Then a dip in September. Then you did $15K again in October. What happened in between?

Heidi: I was fighting that negative energy for at least two weeks, where I felt like anything I was doing in my business wasn't worth it. I was constantly having to tell myself, "That's not true. We know those words are not true. Next Level has the tools. You just need to follow Peter's training. You know how to get there." It was a constant daily fight to keep that at the top of my mind and train my brain to look in a different direction. The negativity made it harder to get back to a positive mindset. You really have to talk yourself out of it.

Peter: Did you have any practices or rituals you'd do every day, or was it more in the moment?

Heidi: A little of both, but mostly in the moment. When I'd feel the negativity coming in, I'd say, "We know everything that person said is not accurate. And here's everything I need to do." I basically gave myself a pep talk all day long for about two weeks. I love the people in Next Level, but I also had to stop looking in the group, because I'd see everyone else's success, hear that negative voice and get dragged down even further. So I had this conversation with myself: "You want to know why those people in Next Level are doing so well? Because they're doing the volume. That's the difference. It's not that you can't do it. It's not that you're not a good photographer. They're just doing the volume. That's all they have to do."

Peter: When you say "do the volume," what does that mean to you?

Heidi: Getting in front of people, connecting with couples and having those conversations. You just have to do more of that. The negative energy was pulling me away from that and making me feel like those conversations weren't worth it.

Peter: This is a huge lesson. When we talk about volume, it means always setting up more opportunities to book. So often people want to book more, but they're not doing enough calls to hit the numbers they want. If you want to book five weddings in a month, you're probably going to need 15 to 20 real consultations, real conversations with a bride where you make an offer. So many people in our industry get five or ten inquiries a month, but they're not really connecting or making offers in a systematic way. You can't make something from nothing. If you don't have the opportunities, it isn't going to happen.

Heidi: And it's a battle, because there's this other side of you that wants to tear you down and tell you that you can't, and it'll use ammunition from somebody else.

Peter: Everybody goes through this. It sounds like you went dark for a while. You shut everything out, even the Next Level group, and said, "I know they're doing it, I know I can do it, and I'm going to focus on the work. If I do the work, I'll get the result." And you did. That's the game of entrepreneurship. We think it's Facebook ads or the best sales script or organic methods, but really it's this.

Heidi: It is. And I don't feel like it ever fully stops. You have to keep feeding yourself throughout the day with positivity and affirmation that you can do it. It also takes an insane amount of trust in yourself.

Peter: Well said. You have to have faith in a future that isn't here yet, see it and believe it's possible. We can quiet the negativity a lot by being proactive. If we don't do anything, we're at the mercy of whichever way the wind is blowing. And the higher you go, that negative side shows up in new ways. People at the most elite levels still have it. They've just gotten stronger. The way you get stronger is exactly what you did: focus on what you need to do. Now you've proven to yourself even more that you can overcome it.

Peter: The goal in July was $10K. You were at about $2K. Now you're at $15K, and you've done it with real challenges. Congratulations. What's next?

Heidi: Next, I at least want to hit $20K, but even that $5K difference seems very attainable. I like to have three goals for myself, usually for the year. I've never wanted to plateau. It's always, what do we need to do to keep up this rate of growth? So there's the regular goal, which is attainable. Then a goal that's attainable but takes effort, where you have to do things differently to get there. And then a stretch goal, which takes a lot of effort and a lot of trust in yourself.

Peter: If you've seen anyone else do it, you can do it. And even if you haven't, that doesn't mean you can't. Looking at the next 12 months, what are the big initiatives in your business?

Heidi: I want to keep booking consistently at the $15K level, then make $20K to $25K consistent and keep increasing it.

Peter: How big do you want to grow this business?

Heidi: I want the weddings to be pretty much hands-off for me. Maybe I only shoot a handful, because I don't want to be working every Saturday. Then I want to focus on branding and grow that side just as big. I'd love to have a really great team, even a stylist, so I can knock the commercial work out of the park.

Peter: You're going to do it. There's no reason why not. You've proven your client acquisition strategy, and you could scale it even more. So now it's about freeing up the service delivery, the shooting and editing, so you have more time, and keep pushing on growth. Then you'll be able to step away and focus on the branding side.

Peter: Say a photographer is listening whose business is inconsistent. Some months they make $2K, some $5K, and they want to get into that $15K range. A lot of people think nobody books during COVID. Meanwhile, you're making $15K in a month. What would you say to someone thinking about joining Next Level?

Heidi: Any time, you have to invest in yourself. That's what it comes down to. You can't get to where you want to go without some guidance and a team to show you along the way. Every time I've invested in myself and my business, from an education or workflow standpoint, it's pushed me miles ahead.

Peter: If you want to do something you've never done, you're going to have to learn new things.

Heidi: Because you can't keep doing what you're doing. It's obviously not working. The other thing Next Level has given me is confidence in the times when I'm not getting a lot of leads. I know this system works, and whenever I feel like I'm getting lost and nothing is working, I always have that to go back to. Here's how we get the leads to come in. It's very simple. I don't have to worry about that question anymore.

Peter: We started this conversation with your big challenge: "I don't know how to get clients predictably." So many people have that problem. Now you know. If you take these actions, you'll get clients and grow your business. It's not about a viral pin on Pinterest or a better website.

Heidi: I was actually thinking about TikTok a few weeks ago, and I just decided no, that's not worth my time.

Peter: Not when you can make $15K a month doing what you're doing. Your time is valuable. If TikTok or anything else becomes a proven channel for client acquisition in wedding photography, we'll go there. Until then, let's stick with what works. A couple of final questions. What's been the most transformative thing for you throughout this process?

Heidi: Overall confidence. Before, I knew I was a good photographer. Now I have confidence that I can be successful at it, and the way I view success has changed. I actually have people calling me and asking how I'm doing this. It feels like I have this little secret in my pocket.

Peter: Once you know how this stuff works, you never worry about making money again, because you know you can go out and drum up business no matter what.

Heidi: The other thing that's been really transformative is being analytical. Before, I'd get really emotional about people saying no. I felt like it was constant rejection or ghosting. Part of the training, and part of your advice, is to be consistent, be analytical and don't let emotions get in the way of you being successful.

Peter: That's been the theme throughout this interview. Giving in to emotions instead of making decisions based on data probably ends more businesses than anything else. Emotions are still there, but when you make decisions about your business, base them on data. That's why knowing your numbers is everything. Say you close 30% of your calls and sell a wedding for $4K, and you want to make $12K. That's three weddings, which means you need 10 calls. It takes the drama out of it. Did you do the 10 calls? If not, we need to get you 10 calls. Last question. You've been in the Next Level community for a few months and seen what other people go through. What's your number one piece of advice for other members?

Heidi: It's okay to take a step back like I did, when you feel it's necessary. You don't constantly have to be in the group and sharing. Definitely share successes, and share if you're struggling and you're comfortable with that. But I'm such a success-driven person that it was very hard for me to admit that my second month didn't go well. It's okay to step back and focus on what you need to focus on.

Peter: That's really good advice. Let the group motivate you when you see other people's wins. But there's also a time and place for shut

ting everything out and focusing on the work.

Heidi: And going dark doesn't mean you're not successful or that it's not working for you.

Peter: No. It's a level of seriousness you tap into when you're channeling everything into the most important thing. I think about your story, going into that silence to focus and then re-emerging victorious. Sometimes that's what you have to do in life. It's heavy lifting.

Heidi: It really does take that amount of energy.

Peter: A lot of people underestimate what it takes to make $15,000 a month. It's work, and it's hard. If someone in the Florida area is looking for a photographer, what's the best way to reach you?

Heidi: My website, [pineandforge.com], where you'll find my inquiry form and my work. I'm also active on Facebook and Instagram at Pine and Forge, and I'm pretty good about messaging people back.

Peter: Heidi, thank you. It's been a pleasure to work with you and see your success, and I'm looking forward to many more, and to tackling the branding side.

Heidi: Sounds good.