Peter: We're back today with an interview with a client of ours, Pol of Sweet Paper Media. If you're watching live, apologies for the delay. We'd been talking for about five minutes before we found out we weren't actually streaming. Pol, give us a little background on you and how long you've been doing weddings.

Pol: My name is actually Leopoldo, and that's my name on Facebook, but everyone calls me Pol. I've been shooting weddings since 2007, so about 15 years. I started my career in the Philippines and moved here in 2012. At first it was a struggle, moving from one market to the US market, because it's really different. We do things differently in different countries. I tried a lot of things. I tried faking it until you make it. I tried to be social media famous. None of that worked. I tried SEO, which was beneficial. I tried wedding directories. I tried everything. And the thing I learned is that you need to see it from the client's perspective.

Peter: Let's fast forward. Today is February 2, and we talked for the first time a year ago, on February 3, 2022. You came to me looking to grow. Where were you then?

Pol: My 2021 revenue was between $70,000 and $80,000 net. I'd have to pull the exact numbers.

Peter: What made you want to talk to me in the first place?

Pol: I was referred by a good friend of mine. I was struggling. Coming from the pandemic, when there was literally zero business, 2021 was me trying to take off again. I needed to do something, or I wasn't going to last. I needed leads, and I needed to know how to convert them. I was getting an average of maybe three or four leads a month from The Knot, and that wasn't enough room for conversion. I was doing Google ads. I tried Facebook, but I didn't know how to run it, and I was at the point where I was willing to hire someone to run it for me. I was desperate, because we were planning to get married, and I wanted to be able to tell myself I could provide.

Peter: Looking at my notes, you were trying to get away from The Knot. What was the challenge there, besides not enough leads?

Pol: There was no way to communicate directly with the bride except through their platform or email. And the worst part is that they increase their fees every year, even though I wasn't making enough revenue from them. It got to the point where I was basically breaking even, once you add up the time I spent working and the money I spent on equipment. There was no real room for profit.

Peter: It sets up a situation where inquiries either book or disappear. Couples look at all the vendors in the area and can email everyone at once. There's no way to stand out, and if they don't book you, it's done. There's no lead nurture.

Pol: You can't nurture your leads or build a connection. The trigger point for me was when I was going through my leads and following up. One lead's name matched the fiancée's name on Facebook, so I added her and messaged her: "I got your inquiry from The Knot." The bride responded and said she'd gotten a little overwhelmed. She'd filled out a form with her budget and region, and they automatically sent messages to a bunch of photographers within her budget and region. She didn't even see my response. She didn't even see my work.

Peter: So she never actually inquired with you?

Pol: She didn't see my work. This is coming from the bride.

Peter: So for everybody listening who's thinking, "I get ghosted a lot on The Knot," that's why.

Pol: And that was my trigger point. I was ready to fight.

Peter: So why did you quit your job in the middle of COVID?

Tom: Like I said, it was a huge leap of faith. But the way wineries, restaurants and breweries have had to adapt their business, I wasn't interested in being part of it anymore. I'd been there nine years, and I was mentally checked out. I wasn't really interfacing with customers anymore, I was more on the back end, but it was still just enough of a job to be a nuisance, taking me away from my photography business. The one line that kept running through my head was, "If there is one year of my life that I really need to fight for my business, it's this year." And wasn't I right? If I didn't do everything I could right now to grow my business and get through this year, it was never going to happen. So I decided, I'm done. We're going to do this. I'm going to sign up with Peter, he's going to help me, and the investment is going to pay back many times over. I haven't looked back.

Peter: You burned the boats. Sometimes you have to dive in and make it work.

Tom: There are a lot of small, family-owned businesses up here. What I noticed during the shutdown and after reopening was that the businesses that sat around waiting for something to save them aren't doing well or had to close. The ones that adapted, flipped their tables over and did everything they could to adjust are still successful today.

Peter: In every crisis, there are opportunities. Some people rise to the occasion and turn it into something positive, and some businesses cease to exist.

Peter: You also said you tried to be social media famous. What do you mean?

Pol: Faking it till you make it. I'm not even ashamed. I tried everything: being Facebook famous, being social media famous, doing styled shoots. Don't get me wrong, styled shoots are great, and it's nice to be creative. But I'd see a nice wedding with a tiny budget, or even free, and I'd shoot it just to look like a legit or famous photographer. Meanwhile, business was hurting.

Peter: You've been in the industry a long time and seen it all. A lot of people want to look like a big-shot photographer while they're struggling financially. So you'd tried a lot of things, you were coming off COVID, and we got on a call and you said, "All right, I'm going to do this." What happened next?

Pol: It wasn't easy. Everything takes work. I spent time on the modules and really soaked them in. What I like is that it's not 100 or 75 modules. It's five, and they're easy to go through. I studied, learned and relearned. I had to unlearn a lot, and absorb a lot. The thing that really stuck in my head was, be relentless. I wasn't relentless enough. I was waiting for people to come to me, and that's not being relentless. Reach out. Know what to say. Understand what your couples are going through and provide a solution. That was number one. Then I tuned up my strategies based on those core values: be relentless, know the problem, solve the problem and help them.

Peter: What did you have to unlearn?

Pol: A lot of things. SEO helps, don't get me wrong. But it's not going to be your main selling point. People may see you on Google, but if you're not reaching out, if you don't know how to communicate and convert, it means nothing.

Peter: A year ago, we talked about getting more consults booked and converting them. People often think they just need more inquiries, but then they find second and third-order problems they didn't know they had. What do you think helped on the sales side?

Pol: Before I talked to you, I didn't know how to convert inquiries into bookings. I thought, "They like my work. That should be enough." It's never enough. What I learned is how to connect. You've got to book that phone call. If you don't book that phone call, consider that client gone. Then on the consult, do it face to face. Put a face to the name, get to know them, give them a gallery tour and understand what they need. Create a custom package that specifically fits them. It's not about you. It's about them. Make them feel that the photos you produce are about them, not about how awesome a photographer you are or your fancy gear. They want their best day celebrated. If you make them feel that way, trust me, they're going to love you. They'll probably invite you to their next brunch.

Peter: Most photographers assume that if someone inquires, they want to book you, so they don't have to do much else. That's why they get confused when they're ghosted. Really, an inquiry is just someone raising their hand to say, "I'm in the market for what you do." That's where the work starts. And you need the humility to realize couples have a lot of options. It's not 1999 anymore. Being good at photography matters, but people want to feel you'll do right by them and what they want for their day.

Pol: Back then, I thought, "I'm experienced. I've been in this industry for 15 years. I have an awesome Instagram feed and a cool website." That's not enough. For a regular bride, you're just another photographer. Even if you're published, even if you're an award-winning photographer, you're just someone who takes pictures. Eight or nine out of ten brides don't know the big wedding blogs. All they want is pictures that are about them.

Peter: Artists can tie their art to their identity so much that they think couples are just buying the work. That's part of it, but couples also want to know how the work fits their wedding, their relationship and their family.

Pol: It's customer service. I actually wrote this on my website while going through the course: the art of wedding photography is being able to produce amazing images regardless of what's given to you. You're not in full control at a wedding. It's very unpredictable. From booking to the wedding to delivery, it's not just about you. It's customer service. How do you create amazing art while giving the couple what they want? "We want a picture of Mom crying while listening to our vows." "I want to see how my eyes close when we kiss." "I want to see what I look like while I listen to my husband's vows."

Peter: For any wedding photographer listening who wants bookings to be easier and to charge more, that's the key: figure out what couples care about emotionally, then help them see that you'll capture it. Anyone can take photos, but capturing the moments that matter to someone only comes from that deeper conversation.

Peter: You told me, "Every client is my dream client."

Pol: Of course. That's one of the mindsets I learned through this process. Whether it's a backyard wedding at an Airbnb, a barn, the most sought-after venue, a scenic national park or a destination wedding, everyone is a dream client, because they're paying me to do what I love. Being a wedding photographer is fun, at least for me. Having fun and getting paid for it is living the dream. So every client is a dream client, even if it's just a courthouse wedding.

Peter: Why is that mindset important?

Pol: Because it creates humility. It helps me remember the wedding isn't about me. It's about the couple. My goal when I arrive at a wedding is to do my best to make sure they're happy and having the best day of their lives. If they're happy, it's easy for me to do my job.

Peter: A lot of people, especially newer photographers, are obsessed with their ideal client, and it's limiting. Ironically, you attract great clients when your attitude is, "I'm just here to serve."

Pol: I think so too, because most of my 2022 revenue came between September and December. That's when I finally tuned up my conversion and booking process. It's also when I started planning my own wedding and seeing it from a groom's perspective. I inquired with different photographers, and from the first email, I thought, "This photographer doesn't care about my wedding. They just want me to know how much they cost, and whether I can afford them." Trust me, I'm willing to spend on my photographer. I'm flying people in from Barcelona, the UK, Southeast Asia, Canada and Mexico. I'd sell my shoe collection for a wedding photographer. But their first emails were so generic, so template-based, that I thought, "This photographer doesn't care about me. They don't even want to book a Zoom call." I'm not going to book someone who doesn't get me, or who tells me what I need. I'm inviting some of the most important people in my life, and all I'll have afterward are the pictures. I want to feel a certain feeling with my photographer. I've found one, but it's a surprise.

Peter: You want someone who gets you, your wedding and what you care about. Where do you think this habit of sending a pricing guide right away comes from?

Pol: I've been there. I did it too. But weddings are very personal. I'd compare it to buying an engagement ring. I called a jeweler and asked, "I'm proposing soon. How much for a ring?" They said, "I don't know what to tell you. You have to come in." When I went in, they asked what kind of stone I wanted, what cut, what size, what metal, what design and how I wanted it set. I didn't know, so they guided me through the process. And I even had budget set aside in case my fiancée wanted to upgrade the ring. It has to be personal. That's how you book a photographer.

Peter: Every photographer wants to be valued, but when you just send prices or list yourself on The Knot, you become a commodity, like everyone else. "Do I want pictures or not?" Versus, "Here's how we'll tailor this to you."

Pol: You're selling an experience. I heard this from another mentor: if you make yourself a commodity, commodities are priced based on supply. And with the number of photographers out there, you're not winning.

Peter: It's like tattoo artists. You can walk into any parlor and pick something off the wall, or you can travel to one of the best in the world and pay 10 times as much, because they're not a commodity.

Peter: We started about a year ago. What results have you seen?

Pol: I'm happy. Not happy about my taxes, but happy. My fiancée is a CPA, so she's doing my accounting. In 2021, I made between $70,000 and $80,000. In 2022, I made $210,000. That's a huge leap.

Peter: I was so stoked to hear that. Last year you said, "If I could get to $120,000, that would be the dream." You tripled your business in one year. How?

Pol: First, I took the risk. To be fully honest, I was skeptical of all these people selling programs to photographers. But my friend said a lot of good things about you, and when we got on the Zoom call, I was ready. "Let's do it. I'm doing it now, not later." The modules and everything I learned in the course are the main reason I reached that number: the mindset, the technical side of running ads and the booking process. It all adds up.

Peter: We helped you build a client booking system into your business, one that takes people from the internet, turns them into inquiries, then consults, then clients, day in and day out.

Pol: Yes, that's the word. Funnel, conversion and booking.

Peter: What's the goal this year?

Pol: I'm aiming bigger. I think I could do $300,000 to $350,000.

Peter: You can. And you're selling albums now too.

Peter: Talk us through your team.

Pol: I have someone who reaches out to my leads. About 80% of my leads come from social media ads, and 20% are organic. For some reason there's been a boost in organic leads lately, so I'm happy about that. Everything goes into a sheet, my assistant accesses it, and their task is to text everyone and book them for a phone call. Then I do the discovery call, and from the discovery call, I book them for a consult. My conversion from discovery call to consult has gone up a lot, maybe because I've tuned up my discovery call. Then we do the consult, I send the proposal, and if they book, I take them through my process and shoot their wedding.

On the other side, my other assistant handles content and editing. The night I get home from a wedding, I upload the files to our system, and they work on them. Our delivery is 48 business hours. I have a retoucher, a colorist and a culler, and I'm the final quality check.

Peter: These are people overseas, in the Philippines. You're from the Philippines yourself. Why go that route instead of using someone in the States?

Pol: I want to use the advantage of the time zone. I get home from a wedding, and while I'm sleeping,

someone's working on my pictures. When I wake up, it's time for them to go to bed, and I work on the pictures. It's a 24-hour production cycle. If I shoot a wedding on Saturday, it's delivered Wednesday night or Thursday morning at the latest.

Peter: Did you have to train them heavily up front?

Pol: I was lucky, because my main editor was my employee in the 2000s in the Philippines. I flew back in 2018 and trained him in person. I spent the first two weeks of my vacation sitting down with him. He'd never done anything like this. He didn't know Photoshop or Adobe, and he didn't have a computer. I told him, "I'm not going to hire anyone I don't trust. You're the only person I trust. If you say yes, I'll buy you an iMac." He said yes, I bought him an iMac, and he started training.

He nailed it within two weeks. After about five actual weddings, I had to give him feedback until he got it, and now here we are. I've never had any complaints. As the volume increased, he started hiring extra people. I suggested he hire a culler and a colorist, and he has a freelance retoucher for when we need things like signs removed from the background. I pay my editor a set amount per month, and he pays the others. It's much less than hiring an editor here, I'd say half or less. But you have to be willing to invest in training them.

Peter: You'd have to train someone here too. Even with the big editing houses, it's rarely perfect right away. How do you handle culling? A lot of people are terrified someone will toss the wrong photos.

Pol: At first it was an issue, but I had to suck it in. When I do my quality check, it's not five minutes. I spend an hour to an hour and a half going through everything. If they missed one, five, even 10 or 20 photos, it's no big deal. That's an hour and a half of work instead of 16 hours at the computer. That's time I could be selling and talking to brides.

Peter: You can maybe get to $100,000 or $150,000 doing it all yourself, especially if you're selling albums. But if you want to get to $200,000 or more, you can't do it all.

Pol: The more your clientele grows, the more your company has to grow. Being a one-man army is very self-limiting.

Peter: Do you go back through the culled photos?

Pol: Yes. They rate everything, and I go through the culled photos quickly. Sometimes I think, "This one is actually good," or, "I like this one better."

Peter: A lot of people get hung up because the edit isn't as good as they'd do it. But if it's 80% there and you do the last 20%, that's 80% you didn't do. That's time you buy back for calls. And over time, 80% becomes 90% and 95%, because you keep giving feedback.

Pol: It's never going to be perfect. I have to admit my editor isn't perfect, but he's doing great. Sometimes I'll ask, "Why did we deliver a photo of the bride smiling like this?" and he'll say, "I thought it was funny." His taste is different from mine.

Peter: How often do you meet with them?

Pol: Every day. My editor wakes up around 4 p.m. my time, so there's a lot of texting. He'll send me a screenshot and ask what I think of an edit.

Peter: What does a typical day look like?

Pol: Before I go to bed, I check my calendar for the next day. If I have a phone call at 11, I'll wake up and, before my editor goes to bed, make a quick call to him: "What's the update on the engagement session? Are we going to deliver on time?" Then it's phone calls and Zoom calls all day. At 5 p.m. Pacific, my assistant starts reaching out to leads. That's part of the secret sauce. People are off work, stuck in traffic or just got home, so we get more responses. We also text during lunch. So my typical day is checking in with my team, doing phone calls and consults, and approving content. On weekends, I shoot.

Peter: All the tedious work is off your plate.

Pol: Editing and even texting can be tedious. You get five to seven leads a day, text them all and then follow up with the people from yesterday and the day before.

Peter: You should do that yourself in the beginning, to learn it and validate the sales process. Then you bring someone in.

Pol: Know your process first, and then bring somebody in. For me, there came a time when I was burning out and couldn't text all day, so I had to find someone.

Peter: What's been the biggest thing we've helped you with?

Pol: Mindset. I'll be honest: before I signed up, I was a big egotistical photographer. I thought, "I have amazing work and 15 years of experience. If they don't book me, it's their loss." After joining, I learned how to reach out, humble myself and see the booking process from the client's perspective: understand what they mean and what they're looking for, and give it to them.

Peter: And as a result, you tripled your business.

Pol: One thing we should all learn is humility. When you learn humility, you'll be relentless.

Peter: If you feel like you're showing up every day for other people, business takes on a new kind of mission. It's not about you anymore. And people sense that. So $350,000 is the goal this year?

Pol: Conservatively $300,000, with $350,000 as the target. There's no max. I'll just tune up my product sales process.

Peter: You'll get there. Thanks for hopping on, Pol. This is going to help a lot of people.